The Best of Theforge
Volume 2 of 3
Compiled and edited by: Ron Reil
Jump To Volume 1 Jump To Volume 3
Note: Multiple articles within a topic are separated by " ******** " between each article. Also, the links to other related resources only link to the page, not to the numbered resource. You will need to scroll down to the listed resource entry. In some cases additional unlinked information may be included in the various "Misc. Information" topics.
67. FORGING HINGES
68. MISCELLANEOUS TOOLS and SOURCES (Also Vol. 1, #14, 55 & Vol. 3, #114, 127)
69. FIREBRICK AND REFRACTORY FOR FORGES (Also Vol. 1, #24)
70. SEARCHING "THEFORGE" ARCHIVE
71. CLEANING WELDS AND SURFACES (Also Vol. 1, #33, 35 & Vol. 3, #119)
72. CHEAP BANDSAWS (Also Vol. 1, #57)
73. GAS FORGES (Also Vol. 3, #130)
74. STEEL INFORMATION (Also Vol. 1, #25 & Vol. 3, #117)
75. TREADLE HAMMERS (Also Vol. 1, #61 & Vol. 3, #123)
76. HYDRAULIC PRESSES (Also Vol. 1, #32)
77. FLY PRESSES
78. DRILL BITS
79. ANVILS AND ANVIL REPAIR (Also Vol. 1, #36 & Vol. 3, #136)
80. HOODS AND CHIMNEYS (Also Vol. 1, #63)
81. HARDENING AND TEMPERING STEEL (Also Vol. 1, #41)
82. SOLDERING
83. POST VISES
84. AIR HAMMERS AND OTHER POWER HAMMERS (Also Vol. 1, #18 & Vol. 3, #129)
85. REPOUSSE' (Also Vol. 1, #29)
86. BLOWERS
87. TORCHES
88. TAVERN PUZZLES:
89. FRO BLADES
90. FORGING LEAVES (Also Vol. 1, #49 & Vol. 3, #138)
91. BOOKS (Also Vol. 1, #46 & Vol. 3, #125)
92. STRIKERS (Also Vol. 1, #45)
93. FLUX (Also Vol. 1, #6, 42 & Vol. 3, #124)
94. COAL AND COKE (Also Vol. 1, #12)
95. REPAIR OF CRACKED PAN FORGE
96. NAIL HEADERS
97. RAILROAD SPIKES (Also Vol. 1, #26 & Vol. 3, #132)
98. ARC WELDING AND WELDING ROD (Also Vol. 1, #3, 4, 5 & Vol. 3, #122)
99. IRON FINISHES (Also Vol. 1, #33, 35 & Vol. 3, #128)
101. LOW HEAT FORGE WELDING (Also Vol. 1, #54)
102. SOLDERING ON PATTERN WELDED BLADES
103. MARKING PENCILS FOR STEEL
104. HAMMERS AND HAMMER HANDLES (Also Vol. 1, #65)
105. SWAGE BLOCKS (Also Vol. 3, #131)
106. JACKHAMMER BITS
107. LINING FORGE PANS (Also Vol. 1, #13 & Vol. 3, #115)
108. MORE ON SUPERQUENCH (Also Vol. 1, #26 & Vol. 3, #121)
109. SURFACE TEXTURES FOR STEEL (Also Vol. 1, #35 & Vol. 3, #128)
110. FLOOR CONE MANDRELS
111. BENDING TUBING (Also Vol. 3, #134)
112. WROUGHT IRON (Also Vol. 1, #10, 40, 50)
Continued in Volume #3
*** See also Volumes 1&3 for more resource information. ***
Doug,
I have cheated with hinges for two reasons, customer wanted them
yesterday, or didn't want to spring for a fully hand-crafted pair.
Most hardware stores sell hinges designed to be welded in place, they are
made with no screw holes. If you can find the size you are after, they
cut the fabrication time well over half. Texture the hinge leaves to
match your embellishment, re-shape or cut down to match the angle, and
gas or electric weld the embellishment to the leaf, drill new screw
holes to your customer's specs. Forming the barrell is, at least for
me, the most time consuming, and therefore expensive, part of a hinge
project. Peen the head of the factory pin a little, and burn off all
the plating. Finish with linseed oil, or something that will cover both
metals equally. The hinge material is usually different than your mild
steel embellishment, and will take some finishes differently, resulting
in a definate demarkation line between the two metals. Also, remember to
blend the weld line completely. To those who make hinges routinely, this
will sound like a lot more work than just making the barrell yourself
anyway, but I haven't acquired the skill yet, and it seems easier for
me. At any rate, it's an alternative, particularly if you have a big
order for hinges that require a lot of careful cutting and filing of the
barrells. We did two jobs of 30 pairs for a contractor. Totally hand
forged ones sent the guy into a fit, so we stopped and refigured. He
couldn't tell the difference between our finished (fabricated) and our
finished hand-forged. It took half the time, and we charged him 3/4,
everybody was happy.
Bob
****************
> Do you have experience with hand forged hinges? If so, I need help, advice
>or better yet, come on over and do these blasted things for me. er, just
>kidding...
> Do I hot rivet or cold rivet the hinge? Whenever I cold rivet, the pin
> distorts. Hot riveting makes it too tight.
> How in the world do you make the tail and strap, hinge parallel? I have
>made close to 5 complete hinges and am not satisfied with the trueness. Or
>am I expecting too much out of hand forged? I am desiring the same close
>fit that store bought ones have. This should be obtainable I would think.
>Or maybe, I am just trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. This
>being the analogy to my talents, not the capability.
>
> Anyway, if you have the magic, please send some my way.
>
>scratchinghead smith, magnuson
> Do I hot rivet or cold rivet the hinge? Whenever I cold rivet, the pin
> distorts. Hot riveting makes it too tight.
I am not sure what you mean by this, are you talking about the hinge pin
that goes thru the rolled "barrel". Also what size stock are you making
these out of?
Here is what I can tell you. lets say you are makinmg a pair of hinges out
of 1/4 inch by 2 inch. First forge your decorative end to it's finished
state, next is really the hinge part, bevel the flat side if your hinge end
the same distance as the material thickness, in this case 1/4 inch, you do
this so after it is reolled you are not trying to cram a perpindicular end
into a circular rolled edge. Start rolling or curving your barrel over the
off side of your anvil so the bevel side of your stock will end up on the
outside of the barrel. Do this at a nice yellow hrat with many light
blows. When your barrel is about 2/4 of the way formed and starting with a
new yellow heat drive a drift the size of your finished hinge pin into your
partially formed barrel. finish forging with the drift in place. If you
have a swage block you can clean your barrel, (with the drift in), in the
appropriate swage in your block. the hinge would be upside down at this
time and you would be striking the back side of the barrel wherer it meets
the strap. If you don't have a swage block you maay have a top swage of
appropriate size and you can do the same process only your hinge would be
lying on your anvil with the finished side showing and you would be placing
your swage on the front of the barrel. Do not quench your hinge, after
normalizing drive your drift thru again cold and then try your finished
pin. If it is still to tight you can drill your barrel out the same size
as you pin stock. When drilling place your hinge so the turning of the
drill does not pull the barrel tighter and bind on your drill bit, when
you place your hinge for drilling look at it then tuen it over and look
again, you'll see what I mean.
> How in the world do you make the tail and strap, hinge parallel?
I am also not sure of your terminology here. Do you mean both ends of you
hinge ending up on the same plain? I guess it is mostly a matter of
keeping things true throughout the entire process. It sounds like you
might not be using enough heat anf forcing distortions along the length.
>am I expecting too much out of hand forged? I am desiring the same close
>fit that store bought ones have. This should be obtainable I would think.
>Or maybe, I am just trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. This
>being the analogy to my talents, not the capability.
No, you are not expecting to much out of hand forged, Do you remember the
first time you tried to parallel park? I bet it was a lot easier after 25
times and after 500 it was a natural process. Hinges are easier than
parallel parking, but the first few are still a challenge.
>I need help, advice or better yet, come on over and do these blasted
>things for me. er, just
>kidding...
You can take my advise for what it's worth, hopefully someone else will
also jump in here with more opinions, I am sure there are other ways and
tricks. But if you are still frustrated come on over and I'll show you
what I know, every Wednesday night is open forge.
Roger Olsen,
MISCELLANEOUS TOOLS AND SOURCES:
As a follow up on my earlier post regarding plastic magnifing lens that can
be added to any glasses. They arrived and work as billed. Went out an
bought a new pair of safety glasses, washed the glasses and the new plastic
lens in warm soapy water. Postioned the lens on the safety glasses and blot
dry. Voila! There is a bit of distortion, but it isn't objectionable and
probably due to the curve in the glasses. The lens can be repositioned and
removed easily.
They have a web site www.neoptix.com where you can get more information and
order the product. This would be handy for use with welding goggles,
sunglasses, scuba masks as well as safety glasses.
Thought you old timers might find it useful.
Don Fogg
****************
howell@sqi.com writes:
>I missed their number or address in the previous posts. Can any of you
>kindly folk supply it?
>Grazie,
>Steve
Harbor Freight Tools
3491 Mission Oaks Blvd.
Camarillo CA 93011-6010
1-800-423-2567 orders, 24 hrs a day
1-800-444-3353 tech info. 7am-4:30 pm Pacific time
Chris
***************
At 06:44 PM 2/19/97 EST, you wrote:
>I have an old ball peen hammer that is really beat. <clip>
> Robert H. Neidlinger "The Tomb Guard"
I don't believe that there is enough metal to make a good hawk.
I buy virtually every (low priced) hammer that I find at garage sales. I
grind the pein end to make handled gravers. You can make them sharp similar
to walking chisels or dull similar to top fullers. I heat the metal and
then, using the pein-graver, mark borders, edges, or single or multiple
scored lines on the metal. Usually this is done on metal bars before
twisting. For example, by putting a single line down the middle of the bar
on all four sides, and then twisting, the bar looks like four smaller bars
were put together and then twisted.
By shaping the head, you can make one side much longer than the other. The
long side would guide down the edge of the metal and the shorter edge
actually makes the groove an even and consistant distance from the edge.
I have a variety of edges for varying effects.
Ray
***************
The anvil tool I mentioned is a helper for "drop the tongs" welds,
where a small piece is being welded to a longer one, like if you had made
the jaws to a pair of tongs, and were welding them to the reins instead
of drawing. Made of rebar, it is forged to fit your pritchell hole for
an inch, then bent to a right angle. Insert it into your pritchell,
measure to the far edge of your anvil, bend down 45 degrees, then another 45
the other way, so the top of the bar is now flush with your anvil face.
About three inches more and bend so the tail of the bar comes almost
parallel with your anvil side, and raises a little as it extends toward
your horn. Be sure to have the roughest part of the rebar up, keep the
inevetable seam on the sides. The support allows you to clamp the
smaller part in tongs with a ring. In use, the smaller element in the
weld is placed on the support, scarf up, and the rein part is pressed on
it, scarf down. You'll save the second or two most
important in welding, and you don't have to take a chance on
mis-positioning the two parts at a time when speed is of greatest
importance.
My ASCII art is worse than the explanation :-( If you need
a sketch, an s.a.s.e. to Bob, 3205 West North Front St.
Grand Island, Ne. 68803, will get you a pretty good cad drawing of it
***************
where can I get metal stampings
>Bob Hendricks
All of the co's listed below were represented at the NOMMA MetalFab last
week. All have very nice catalogs that EVERYONE should get. If not to order
then for reference and idea germination. The Pietrocola, Barry, and
Triebenbacher catalogs are IMHO the best.
Not in any particular order
New Metals, Inc
5823 Northgate, Suite 2032
Laredo, TX 78041-2697
18886396382
http://www.newmetals.com
Crescent City Iron Supply
9835 Derby Lane
Westchester, IL 60154
18005359842
Triebenbacher Bavarian Iron Works
619 Pennbrook Ave
Lansdale, PA 19446
18005224766
Barry Pattern & Foundry Co
3333 35th Ave N.
Birmingham, AL 35207
18005241809
Pietrocola & Sons Iron Suppliers, Inc
1672 East 233rd ST
Bronx, NY 10466
718-324-6871
Email: pietrocola@pipeline.com
Julius Blum & Co
PO Box 816
Carlstadt, NJ 07072-0816
18005266293
Texas Metal Industries
PO Box 154
Crandall, TX 75114
18002226033
Daesa
1309 E 7th St
Austin, TX 78702
18003237287
Tennessee Fabricating Co
2025 York Ave
Memphis, TN 38104
18002584766
Email : tnfab@memphisonline.com
New Metals, Inc
5823 Northgate, Suite 2032
Laredo, TX 78041-2697
18886396382
http://www.newmetals.com
Michael Linn
***************
Hi gang, just found this note and thought it might be of interest.
Subject: Re: Low cost pyrometer
>Does anyone know a source for a low cost pyrometer? I have
>a small furnace for melting aluminum and brass.
I made one out of that little thingamajig thet sits in the pilot flame and
has two wires connecting it to the valve. I hooked it up to an analog
voltmeter (0-3V) and made a new scale using a friend's real pyrometer.
Works real nice for brass and Al
temperatures, but I don't know it it can stand CI tepms.
Also, try www.dejanews.com and search for pyrometer. You won't beleve how
often this topic comes up on this NG.
Alex
*************
Gene wrote
> Hi gang, just found this note and thought it might be of interest.---
> >Does anyone know a source for a low cost pyrometer? I have
> >a small furnace for melting aluminum and brass.
> I made one out of that little thingamajig thet sits in the pilot flame
<snip>
For a really snazzy homemade Optical Pyrometer,
check out ----> http://tbr.state.tn.us/~wgray/howto/optpyro.html
for complete plans, wiring diagrams, how to calibrate, etc.
I may have to build one of these to check out how hot my shop really gets
this summer :-)
Lee Catlow
**************
On Apr 25, 10:28am, mbalent@csc.com wrote:
> Subject: Re: Hosseld Hand Bender
> From: Matt Balent
> What size stock are you going to be bending? This can make
> a BIG dollar difference when deciding which bender to buy.
> - Matt
>
As for the Hossfeld Bender, there are only two sizes. The price difference, the
last time I checked was not very large between them, so get the #2 bender. In
addition, the is another company that make a Hossfeld bender look-alike for
less money. The addresses etc are:
American Bending Inc.
1175 E. Broadway
P.O. Box 64
Winona, MN 55987
507-452-4955
507-452-7318 fax
Maker of a bender similar to the Hossfeld #2. Cost is substancially less than
Hossfeld. All parts and dies except the angle iron dies are available.
Contact Wally.
Hossfeld Mfg. Co.
P.O.Box 557
Winona, MN 55987
507-452-2182
507-454-1194 fax
Manufactures the Hossfeld Universal Bender. This will bend most
sizes and shapes of metal. Good for single bends and/or production.
Hundreds of dies available.
Another source for benders is:
Shop Outfitters
605 South Adams Street
Laramie, WY 82070
307-745-5999
307-742-5999 fax
Compact metal working tools including a bender with several (optional)
attachments like scrollers and a bar twister, ring roller, and heavy stock brake.
Finding used machinery in good condition could have you paying as much as new
or you could have a good deal. Check machinery auctions, used machinery
dealers, or ...
A coupla used machinery dealers who could give advice/help are:
Altman Machinery Co., Inc.
4343 S. Oakley Ave.
Chicago, Illinois 60609
312-247-4343
312-247-2666 fax
AltmanMchy@aol.com email
Used machinery and other old equipment dealers.
Lee's Machinery
2428 Antioch Road
Perry, OH 44081
216-259-2222
Good source for used machinery of all kinds. The service is good and
the advise helpful. Ask for Mike Zinn.
Meridian Machinery
P.O. Box 1
Babylon, NY 11702
516-422-1821
Warehouse:
21 Hicks Street
Lindenhurst, NY 11757
516-956-1442
mermac@ix.netcom.com email
http://pw2.netcom.com/~mermac
http://hre.com/meridian/
Used machine tools of all kinds. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Efficient
service.
Morton Machinery Co.
2910 South Santa Fe Avenue
Los Angeles, CA 90058-1400
213-627-2881
213-583-8693 fax
http://www.mortonmachinery.com
mark@mortonmachinery.com
Large inventory of used machinery.
PKE, Inc.
P.O. Box 6595
Libertyville, IL 60048-6595
847-362-0014
847-362-5657 fax
pmcpke@cris.com
http://www.cris.com/~pmcpke/
Good source of used machinery. They specialize in tin knocker
stuff and always have Pexto everything, beverly shears, circle shears,
Hossfeld, and Diacro benders. The prices are good, the service is
friendly and the advise helpful. Ask for Norman Alhalel.
This is all I have. Let me know what you find.
Mark W.
*************
Page 17 of Whitaker's 'Cookbook' says:
'Tenon Monkey tools can be made from hollow core drill rods. Anneal first, then drill out to size. No hardening is needed as they are very tough steel'.
Steve Howell
************
At 02:39 PM 4/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I have a couple of 3" balls out of an old ball mill that should be
>sturdy enough to handle the shock.
>Morgan
`Another idea for the steel balls, is to get in touch with a local
scale company.( one that services large truck and RR track scales). In the
process of converting some of the older mechanical scales to electronic
loadcells they usually throw-away the "balls and ballplates" and the knife
bearings. The balls(really just big ball bearings) and the knife bearings
are 52100 steel. The knife bearings are rectangular in shape with one long
side that comes to an edge.
The bearings can range from a few inches long (round for balls) to
several feet long and 4-5" thick (from a 1million lb RR trackscale). I
understand that the knifemakers love 52100. I used a piece for a cold
hardie, just welded on a stub and used it as is. These balls along with
their matching plates just might work for what you want.
mike
*************
A few days ago we discussed bending jigs. One small homemade one that I've
seen photos of was in the book called "Shop Savvy". That book, when I
searched at amazon.com showed to be out of print, though it's in my city
library. So I did a few drawings of this simple jig, put it on a web site
with description at, http://www.flash.net/~dwwilson/bjg/bjg.html
This is not a mini Hossfield. It's for small, hand bending of lighter
metal. Cost may be $5 depending on salvage finds. You can bend scrolls, "S"
hooks, etc., with it.
David
mailto:dwwilson@flash.net
Forge Plans; http://www.flash.net/~dwwilson/forge/fgpl.html
*************
From: Matt Balent
Here is some more info on the Hall Punch-Cutter-Bender.
Punches 5/16 hole in 1/4 inch. Side or end punch to 5/8 center.
Center punch to 1 5/16 centers. Center punch handles up to
2 5/8 bar width.
Bends up to 1/4 x 2 cold or 3/8 x 3 hot.
Shears up to 5/16 x 2 bar or 1/2 round.
Comes with 5/16 punch standard, 3/8 and 1/4 optional.
John Hall Company
1137 Hwy 57
Brussels, WI 54204
(414) 825-1295
*************
IF You are looking for ACME nuts, rod, ckeck out
GREEN BAY MFG. CO.
BOX 206
APPLETON WI 54912
PH. 414-730-0023
all kinds of nuts, acme rod, also steel balls
****************
> Subject: New Firepot
> I am looking for a source of firepots other than centaur forge. Thanks in
> advance.
> Steve Bean
Steve,
Though none of these is in Vermont, one may fit the bill for you.
Lorance Forge and Castings
(Roger Lorance)
16412 E. Illinois 9 Highway
Canton, IL 61520
309-647-9242
Makes heavy-duty firepots, swage blocks and cone mandrels. Descriptive
brochure available.
Lunenburg Industrial Foundry & Engineering
53 Falkland
P.O.Box 1240
Lunenburg, NS B0J 2C0
CANADA
902-634-8827
902-634-8886 fax
http://www.isisnet.com/life/cat
life@isisnet.com
Makers of several firepots for the forge. Ask for one with the square
hole as it has a pattern for a clinker breaker.
Wrought Iron & Metal Products
(Gerald L. Hawkins)
132 Weinland Drive
New Carlisle, Ohio 45344
513-849-6964
Makes complete firepots (fire pot, clinker breaker and ash dump).
Laurel Machine & Foundry Co.
P.O.Box 1049
810 Front Street
Laurel, MS 39440
601-428-0541
601-425-5617 fax
Makes anvils, swage blocks, large & small cones, fire pots,
and clinker breakers.
Try one or try them all. Hope one suits you.
Mark
*************
On Jun 26, 6:11pm, Dave B. wrote:
> Subject: Hosfeld benders
> All right folks, who took it? I know I saved the info on the address and
> stuff on Hosfeld, plus information on a similar bender. Now I can't find
> it, and I'm sure I didn't lose it. So, some one must have invaded my hard
> drive and deleted it.
>
> So, would someone be kind enough to e-mail or repost the information. I'm
> particularly interested in getting the video on using one, plus the
> instruction manual.
> Thanks <grin>
> Dave Brown
Dave,
I'm just going to write out what I've got in the supplier's list for you on benders.
Akron Welding & Spring Co.
925 S Main St.
P.O. Box 190
Akron, OH 44311
216-376-2242
Supplier of Hossfeld benders and bending dies as well as other
industrial supplies.
American Bending Inc.
1175 E. Broadway
P.O. Box 64
Winona, MN 55987
507-452-4955
507-452-7318 fax
Maker of a bender similar to the Hossfeld #2. Cost is substancially less than
Hossfeld. All parts and dies except the angle iron dies are available.
Contact Wally.
Paramount Machinery Corporation
P.O. Box 7272
Libertyville, IL 60048-7272
Warehouse and Office:
197 Peterson Rd.
Libertyville, IL 60048
847-362-5599
847-362-6232 fax
normpmc@concentric.net email
http://www.concentric.net/~Normpmc/ web site
Good source of used machinery. They specialize in tin knocker
stuff and always have Pexto everything, beverly shears, circle shears,
Hossfeld, and Diacro benders. The prices are good, the service is
friendly and the advise helpful. Ask for Norman Alhalel.
Hossfeld Mfg. Co.
P.O.Box 557
Winona, MN 55987
507-452-2182
507-454-1194 fax
Manufactures the Hossfeld Universal Bender. This will bend most
sizes and shapes of metal. Good for single bends and/or production.
Hundreds of dies available
Hope one of these sources is the one for you.
Mark
*************
> Subject: Re: 2 foot folding rule
> I would like too add to this question. Does anyone know where a two foot
> BRASS rule could be obtained. I have read that the old smiths had brass
> rules to eliminate the rust problem, and I have searched the flea markets
> for them without success. Do any of you have one, and are they made today?
> Thanks.....
> Ron
> > From: John Elliott
>> Does anybody have an idea where to buy a reasonably price 2 foot metal
> > rule. ( folds in the middle) I'v found old blacksmith rules but of
> > course the tool collectors want $25 to $30 each.
>-- End of excerpt from Ron Reil
I think Centaur Forge has both steel and brass two foot folding rulers. The
brass ones come from England, I think. I posted Porter-Walker's address for the
steel rules. Call them. They may have a source of brass rules.
Mark
************
Ron,
MSC is one of the largest industrial supply houses in the country. They expect
you to have a business name before they send you a catalog, however you can
give them almost any name. When you get your catalog, you have an account set
up. No paperwork at all. The catalog is HUGE. This year's was about 3200 pages
hardbound. They sell a wide range of products. In most cases they offer a range
of quality/price. For example, drill bits range from low price imports to high
price, top of the line American-made bits - High speed steel, cobalt, TiN
coated and others.
Give them a call. Their shipping map says that Idaho should have two day
shipping. They try for fast turnaround times 24 hours usually.
MSC Industrial Supply Company
151 Sunnyside Blvd.
Plainview, NY 11803-1592
800-645-7270
800-255-5067 fax
516-349-0265 FAX
http://www.industry.net/mrop/msc
Suppliers of everything from nuts & bolts to machinery. Their
catalog runs to 3000 pages. They prefer a business name, but will
sell to anyone.
Hope you enjoyed the flea market and got enough bargains to make the trip
worthwhile.
Mark
***********
Francis Whitaker's book "The Blacksmith's Cookbook Recipes in Iron" has
plans for a shear. Capacity: " 1/4 x 4", 5/8 square or round, and 3/8 x
1-1/2". It looks fairly straight forward to build with a drill press and a
welder. Francis states he has been using his for 50 years.
Hope this helps
Dan
**************
el doesn't seem to be in the
new catalogs) but it works like a dream. A friend asked for advice on
buying a hammer drill. I said, "Don't bother, you want one rated as a
rotary hammer for use in granite. Here try mine." so he went out to his
pickup and came back with a piece of granite he had been trying to drill,
put it into the post vice, set the drill pulled the trigger and then said,
"Jeez, the bit must be slipping back into the chuck." And then stepped
back speechless, he had drilled a 2 1/2" hole and didn't even realise he
had been drilling.
Before I bought the Rotary hammer, I went to drill 3/8 by 3" holes in 120
granite blocks for use as bases for an edition of awards. I drilled for 15
minutes on one with my old Milwaukee and still wasn't done. I figured if I
was going to get done before doomsday I had better find a better way.
I went to Fastenrite in St.Paul and asked my friend Tom for advice.
He asked me how many holes I had to drill, and then offered to loan me the
drill to use. 20 seconds per hole.
I bought it.
Gene
FIREBRICKS AND REFRACTORIES FOR FORGES: (See Also Volume #1)
I just bought 10 sq feet of a refractory felt called "Cerachrome" aerospace
insulation manufactured by Johns-Mansfield for $3.00 per sq.foot. Its rated
to 2600°F continuous duty, and higher for transient service. The spec sheet
says its unaffected by chemicals except hydrofloric and phosphoric acid and
strong alkalies. I dont remember the distributor (he was at the Blade
Symposium) but the address of the mfr is:
Johns-Mansfield Aerospace Dept.
Ken-Caryl Ranch
Denver, CO 80217
303-979-1000
You might can call them and get the name of a local distributor.
mike
************
Hi all:
I played hooky from work today, due to an equipment failure and found a
company that carries one hell of a selection of refractories and
insulation.
It's the, "E.J. Bartells Co." They have offices in: Anchorage, Billings,
Mt, Denver, Co, Eugene, Or, Kennewick, Wa, Medford, Or, Portland, Or,
Renton, Wa, Salt Lake City, Ut and Spokane, Wa.
I picked up some 1" 8lb Kaowool for $0.60/sq,ft and a ramable refractory
with a working temp of 3,100f that's chemically resistant, especially to
caustics for $20.25/50lbs (1/3 cu ft). Hot borax? HAH! <grin>
The ramable is supposed to fire to a rigid but non-chipping/cracking
finish, it's supposed to be almost as tough as concrete at heat and very
abrasion resistant.
This stuff isn't even close to their high end refractories either, they
were out of the 3,300f castable I would rather have used but they had a
good supply of 4,300f firebrick, all the Kaowool products and lot's
more.
Just thought you'd like to know. <grin>
Frosty
************
Doug, I cast the roof of my forge (2" thick by 12" x 20")
with a refractory cement called LITECAST 50/25
which I obtained from UNITED WESTERN SUPPLY (UNI-WEST)
4401 E 46th Ave, DENVER CO 80216. Fax 303-388-0922
Tel 303-388-1224
It worked very well for me.
Amos
************
Subject: Re: Fire Brick Use in Forging
Kallen Jenne or Naiara Junqueira wrote:
> I'm was wondering whether you can use fire brick in forge construction
> instead of refractory brick. I had two thoughts on this: 1) what kind of
> heat can fire brick take naturally and 2) can you coat it with some type of
> refractory coating to increase it's value in the forge?
> Anyone have any thoughts or experience in this matter?
> Kallen
There is a product the I use for lining the forge called Super-G.
It is a refractory clay available in 100 # box from A.P.Green for
around $ 35.00. It has been replaced by a new but similar product
but I do not have the number/name of the new one.
To use the clay, break off a chunk, place it on your forge and with
a hammer pound it down until it is layered about 3/4" to 1-1/2"
thick. I recommend not lining the firepot but so the rest of the
forge.
After the forge is covered build a fire on the new clay using
charcol briquetts. Spread the fire over all the new clay and let
the charcol burn until exhausted. It is now ready to use.
One word of caution. Keep the forge out of the rain. Rain or
constant soaking will cause the refractory to disolve and break
down. Mine has been used for about 5 years now.
Hope it helps.
Doug
To all of you out there who have tried to use theforge
archives, I have compiled a few notes that may help you
get there from wherever you are. The instructions from the
forge itself are not exactly clear and then are written
for those who are UNIX versed, so I thought maybe a little
"Archives for Beginners" would help us all out a bit.
Theforge archives can be accessed by any subscriber to the
forge. Since theforge is a public archive, you don't need
to use a password for simple searches. This simplifies the
command line that you need to send.
There are really only five commands you can send to the
archive as a user:
index --> gets a list of all the files in theforge archive.
The list is not very creative, but is easy to understand:
There is one file for each month's worth of e-mails
and the names of the files are in this form:
log9612 --> e-mails from December, 1996
log9703 --> e-mails from March, 1997
log9511 --> e-mails from November, 1995
(see the pattern?)
These files are often quite large (between 1 and 2 megabytes)
and contain all the e-mails for that month that went
through the forge.
get -->actually gets a selected file from the archive and
delivers it to you in pieces of about 70kb via e-mail.
the 1.8 megabyte file comes in about 25 separate e-mails!
search --> searches the selected archive file or all files for
lines in the file that contain the selected search
pattern. It then echoes back to you, via e-mail, a list
of the lines it found and the file that it found them in.
Unfortunately, it only sends back the single line, which
often does not give much insight into the content of the
entry itself.
fax --> like 'get', it gets a particular file and sends it
to you on a fax rather than on e-mail. (I have never personally
tried this!)
view --> like 'get' but in interactive mode, just catenates the
file on the screen. ( I haven't tried this myself either!)
The commands are USED in the following manner:
You send an e-mail to 'listproc@wugate.wustl.edu' NOTICE that this
is NOT the same place that you send mail to the forge!!! That is
'theforge@wugate.wustl.edu'. If you send these archive commands to
theforge, you will get a pleasant nastygram informing you of your
mistake.
Also, the text of the command is put in the BODY of the e-mail,
NOT in the subject entry. You can put anything you want into
the subject slot, maybe just a reminder of what you are trying
to accomplish.
INDEX
to get an index listing, which is not very glamorous
afterall, simply enter this line only
index theforge
in the BODY of your e-mail.
You will soon get back a list from the forge of all the
files that you can download or search in the form
described above (like I said it is not very glamorous!)
SEARCH
If you want to search for a particular topic, you can
enter the following command in the body of the e-mail:
search theforge "pattern"
Substitute the string you want to search for for pattern.
Now here is the tricky part, if you do not know UNIX very
well or not at all:
there are several "operators" that can help
define the pattern you are searching for:
'&' - "logical and" - this allows you to search
for more than 1 pattern at the same time:
search theforge "books & clay"
searches for any LINE that contains both the word
'books' AND the word 'clay', but not necessarily
beside each other in the line.
'|' - logical or - this allows you to search
for lines that contain one or the other or both
of the entries:
search theforge "books | clay"
searches for any line that contains either books
OR clay or BOTH.
'~' - negation - allows you to exclude any line
containing that pattern: Unfortunately, I have never
been able to get the negation operator to work
properly. Perhaps if there is someone out there
that has, I can add it in here with an example.
Every time I have tried this operator, I get an
illegal message message.
('SURE', you say, 'Clear as mud' . . . Well, just
experiment a bit, what the heck!)
Anyway, you will get an e-mail back from the forge with a list
of all the 'found' lines and the file in which they are found.
Unfortunately, it only works for individual lines, which may
not give you much information. Ultimately, you will have to
download the file or 'view' it to find the answers. It DOES
help to locate significant threads that may have surfaced
in the past months.
GET
To get the file containing all the entries from the month
of May, 1997, simply enter the following line
alone in the body of your e-mail to listproc:
get theforge log9705
You will get back a series of e-mails containing the broken
up file. You may want to piece it back together.
Unfortunately, the files do not get delivered in any
particular order, so if you want to recombine them in
order, you need to search each one for the proper order
before recombining.
The nice thing about the way the files are stored on the forge
is that individuals files represent a time-block group (1 month)
rather than a topic. Once you have downloaded a particular
month, it will not be changed in the future. Eventually, you
can get the entire archive on your own disk as a reference!
This 'archives for dummies' is not an exhaustive treatment of
the archives access by users, but a tutorial in the basics and
how to get started. More detailed info can be found by sending
help
OR help archive
in the body of an e-mail to listproc (remember this is not the
same place you send the forge listings).
You will get back an e-mail with lots of good stuff about the
archive, but written for UNIX savvy users and somewhat
lacking in clarity for the uninitiated!
If I have misrepresented anything, please forgive me, given
the number of repeat questions and the references to the
archives, it seemed a prudent thing to offer a concise
tutorial to the process. If you have tried something else
that works, I will gladly add it to this file and republish!
Frederick W. Faller
> I don't know if this is what your after, but I use a product called
> "Compound-302" to clean my s/s projects after I am done with the TIG
> weld.... seems to clean up the color and aids in the finish too. >snip<
> Steve
Thanks to everybody for the info. I've been searching the net for hours,
which I rarely do, and I've learned a lot. For anyone interested, read on,
all others, move on (you've been warned)...
Now, I'm no expert, but here's what I've gathered:
Stainless steel, when ground, heated, etc, can leave iron molecules exposed
on the surface, which can begin the process of corrosion. This corrosion can
accelerate, causing serious problems in the long run.
A way to treat this problem is through stainless steel "passivation." This is
typically done in heated baths using a mixture of approximately 30% Nitric
acid and water. The problem I encountered was a lack of nitric baths in this
area large enough to dip the pieces I am producing. Nitric acid takes a while
to achieve the desired effect, so spraying the solution on was not a viable
option, as it would evaporate before fully passivating the surface.
I've just found a product (on the 'net) that the producers claim is being
used by some people as a spray-on solution. It is called CitriSurf
(1-847-854-2800), the man on the phone was very helpful. He told me this
product is a citric-based acid that works the same as nitric acid, only much
faster, thus making it possible to spray this solution on the piece. Another
benefit is that this product is much more environmentally friendly, and much
less toxic. Usual precautions of gloves, respirator, goggles, etc, are still
required.
This product was developed for use in baths as an alternative to the nitric
solution, but is much more viable as a spray-on treatment than the nitric due
to it's faster working time (about 10 minutes). It's available in 5 gal. and
55 gal. quantities, I'm getting the 5 gal. quantity, it's about $110, but
it's in concentrate form, and will make about 70 gallons. (that ought to last
me awhile!)
Once I use it, I'll report back about how it went. I guess the real test make
take a few years, so we'll see...
Usual note on this kind of letter: I have NO affiliation with this company in
any way, I won't even get a beer for telling people about it. :(
-Heath
*************
>Is Miracle Grow the same stuff as concrete cleaner?
>Someone correct me if I'm wrong-
>Miracle Grow= MuriAtic Acid, Concrete Cleaner= MurItic Acid?
>I'm interested in the descaling properties of either. How much do you use
>in a five gallon bucket for descaling?
>Thx,
>Steve
steve,
i've never used miracle grow for descaling but have used muriatic acid.
i have a rubber garbage can behind my shop about 3/4 full. it is mixed
about 1 part musiatic acid, (from the gallon containers available at any
hardware store) to about 5 parts water. pieces that will fit i just
suspend in the tub. if to big i paint the solution on, let sit about 20
minutes then rinse, and neutralixe with baking soda. i don't use this for
forged iron, just to get mill scale off plate steel prior to a rust or
patina finish.
till later
roger olsen,
*************
> Subject: Cleaning Welds
> I'm interested in methods anyone may have for cleaning hard to get to areas
> after forge welding to prevent flux residue showing up later. Thanks in
> advance.
> Dan Cruzan
Dan,
I've had good results from soaking forge welded pieces in phosphoric acid
solution. I mixed a roughly 10% acid by volume water solution. I soak pieces
for 30 - 45 minutes, then dunk them into sodium bicarbonate solution to
neutralize and then paint or whatever.
I'll read whatever other responses you get. I may see one that's easier than
mine.
Mark
CHEAP BANDSAWS: (See Page 1 also)
......I agree with David, the bandsaw is a great step up from the
power hacksaw. For $200 ( from Harbor Freight ) I've used mine
everyday for 10 years with no major problems. And if you go to:
http://www.flex.net/~7Egeotek/hmsc/index.htm
you will find plans to make a great stand for this type of saw complete
with a coolant pump and recovery system.
and you can get bi-metal blades for this type of saw (64 1/2" x 1/2")
for $13 each at a place in Mississippi named Tyler Tool Co.
601-876-2145. I went through several hundred 'carbon steel' blades
before I wised up to the bi-metal.
Dave Mudge / Magic Hammer Forge
lama@wild.net / magichammer@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Park/1327
Editor for: Louisiana Metalsmiths' Association
http://www.wild.net/~lama
-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. David C. Hufford <clshuffo@ACS.EKU.EDU>
To: theforge@wugate.wustl.edu <theforge@wugate.wustl.edu>
Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Metal Band Saws/power hacksaws
>barchey@bell-labs.com wrote:
>>
>> Question:
>> Has anyone built the (Gingery Plans) power hacksaw or the band saw?
>> o Did you have to beef-up any sections etc.
>> o Does the saw perform well (rate of cut etc.)
>
>I built the Gingery power hacksaw about 4 years ago. It was a good
>learning experience as I hadn't built any sort of power equipment
>before. There are a couple of errors in the plans, which I can alert
>you to if you decide to pursue the project; and a couple of places I
>deviated from his design. With at least a 1/2 HP motor the saw performs
>well, and has the advantage of using inexpensive hardware store-variety
>12-inch blades. However, I retired the hacksaw in preference for a band
>saw (which I purchased, not built).
>
>David C. Hufford
************
Dave Mudge wrote:
> ......I agree with David, the bandsaw is a great step up from the
> power hacksaw. For $200 ( from Harbor Freight ) I've used mine
> everyday for 10 years with no major problems. And if you go to:
> http://www.flex.net/~7Egeotek/hmsc/index.htm
> you will find plans to make a great stand for this type of saw complete
> with a coolant pump and recovery system.
The url you sent is deadern a door nail. The url that works is:
http://www.flex.net/~geotek/hmsc/sawstand/sawstand.htm
Phil Rosche
Summerville, SC
GAS FORGES: (See Page 1 also)
Ralph A Kessler wrote:
> Hello to all on the Forge.
> I know that there are two types of Gas Forges.
> Does any one have a set of plans for the second type.
> RAK SC
Matt Wills in Wichita, KS has some good, proven forge designs. E-mail
him at "Blacksmith@mci2000.com"
Mike George
**************
At 04:08 PM 9/29/97 EDT, you wrote:
>I had an interesting talk with Hans Peot yesterday at Quad State 97. The
>plans for the propane forge that I had built said "based on a design by
>Hans Peot." As it turns out Mr. Peot had nothing to do with the plan for
>this particular forge and didn't seem to appreciate his name being
>associated with "that atmospheric junk." The forge that he designed is
>the one with one burner and a blower and he was adamant that this was the
>ONLY one that he had anything to do with and don't believe anything that
>you get from the net. He told me that you have no control over the
>environment inside the atmospheric models and you have complete control
>with his. Very good point.
>
>
>Jack
>jgeisler@juno.com
>
>PS: I thought that the atmospheric junk worked pretty well
>
>
If you want to see good atmospheric "junk", take a look at the Sandia Forge
(plans available from ABANA) that Robb Gunter helped design. I've seen a
lot of gas forges over the last couple of years and this past weekend I saw
my first Sandia Forge (built by Guild of Metalsmiths in MN). I was really
impressed with it's design and efficiency. Robb Gunter was using this
forge. It ran routinely at 5# pressure and he jumped the pressure to 12#
for welding. The pre-heat for the air heats the air to about 900 degrees.
That is not only a lot of recovered heat, it significantly improves the
efficiency of the forge.
The Sandia Forge is an atmospheric forge and calling it "junk" shows a lack
of knowledge of this forge. Some of the atmospherics may well be "junk",
but this one certainly isn't. After seeing it work, I'll take it and pass
on the forced air forges.
I don't know Hans Peot, but do know of him. He may be a gifted smith and
knowledgeable about a lot of things, but he is a bit off track on this.
At least that is what I think.
Dave Brown
STEEL INFORMATION: (See Volume #1 also)
CHRIS P WORSLEY wrote:
> Ron, I have made gravers by reforging Nicholson files that were no longer
> good as files. Of course, the fewer heats you take, the less carbon you
> loose. I used the gravers on zinc plates for printing, and on mild steel for decoration.
> Chris
> Alexandria, Va.
>
> On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:15:57 -0700 "Ron Reil" <rreil@micron.net> writes:
> > I need a small amount of ultra high carbon steel, around 130 points.
> >I need it to make up some gravers. . . .
How about using lathe tool blanks. Any good tool supply shold have them,
our local welding supply even carries them. I buy mine ad a discount
industrial tool place for about $1.50 each, and they also have them in
1/8". If you need longer than about 2.5", you could weld the tool blank
to something else for the handle end. I have some gravers that I made
from used chain saw files.
Just my thoughts as my brain thaws out from the -20 degree trip into work
today.
Otto Bacon
**************
Ron, I would try an old file first. The carbon content in old files is
very high, and certainly much cheaper than buying some specialty alloy
off someone's shelf. There is a nasty rumor that new files are case
hardened mild steel with the teeth cut into the case only. So, I would
find a really old file at the flea market or someone's junk pile. Forge
close to final shape, and carefully grind and file to final shape, harden
and temper to staw for wood, softer for metal. Rule I remember is, the
harder the material to be cut, the softer the temper color.
Bob
***************
To All,
Drill rod is typically 1.2-1.3% C depending on the manufacturer. I think that
Cartech has a web page and they should list their tool steels and
compositions.
Files are red short to a fault. They will also fall apart if they get a
little too hot. I don't think there will be a problem in a gas forge but in a
coal forge just pay attention to what you are doing.
The plain high carbon tool steels do decarburize but not as badly as you
might think. Just leave enough stock for removal after forging.
Hochewa
***************
Ron Reil wrote:
> Lee, I am a little confused about the "O" series of tool steel. Looking in
> my reference book it seems that O-1 steel will reach a maximum hardness of
> about 58 Rockwell C, tempered at 200 degrees F, while 120 point carbon
> steel will achieve about 67 Rockwell C hardness, and 130 point close to 70
> RC with the same tempering at 200 degrees. It would seem to me that the
> "O" series would not be hard enough for gravers. I am asking, since I am
> not all that knowledgeable about the letter series of steels. I know the
> "O" means oil hardening, but am I mistaken that 58 would be pretty soft for
> a graver that would be used on steel and other metals?
> Your comments would be most appreciated. Thanks.
Ron...Oil hardening tool & die steel (O-1 in this case) is (quoting from
the machinists handbook) "A low alloy tool steel with low tendency to
warpage. Used for cutting tools in applications where high heat is not
produced, such as taps and threading dies, press dies for blanking,
trimming, and forming dies in short to medium runs.
Any choice of steels is always a compromise proposition. You are
balancing hardness, toughness, ease of machining, resistance to warpage
during heat treat, cost, etc.
O-1 is a relatively inexpensive tool steel with properties that should
meet your criteria. There are better choices out there, but may not be
readily available inexpensively.
Enjoy the hunt.
Lee Marshall
Bonny Doon Engineering http://www.bonnydoonengineering.com
**************
Ron,
I did find at least one source for 100 point steel. Crucible Service
Centers (www.crucibleservice.com) has AISI 52100 steel. A lot of the other
suggestions sound a lot better than trying to buy small quantities of steel
from any supplier, though.
I also located a suppler of alloy and tool steels closer to you neck of the
woods. Pacific Machinery & Tool Steel is in Portland, OR. (800) 547-1091. I
did not make a note of their URL, however. :-( They have plow and spring
steels and various A, O and S steels.
Keith
*****************
Ron,
I have made gravers and chisels for carving metal from both O1 and
W1 tool steel they are both about .1% carbon. They work well for this
purpous. Ron you were wanting a higher carbon content but I think that you
will find that the higher carbon content will make the tools too brittle
and they will break in use. Even with the O1 and W1 steels I temper the
tool after hardening to a pale straw yellow this will reduce the tendency
to shatter in use. If you realy need harder tools then you need colbalt
alloy tool steel or other alloy steel . These are very hard to heat treat
without special equipment if you want to get the advertised hardness of
these special alloys. So I would start with O1 and W1 both of which are
sold as drill rod by most tool and machinery supply houses (Reid, Rutland,
McMaster-Carr).
Jim
http://www.mokume-gane.com
***************
> > I need a small amount of ultra high carbon steel, around 130 points. I
> > need it to make up some gravers for engraving work. Ideally it would be
> > about 1/4 inch in cross section, but I can draw it down if its bigger, but
> > not much bigger. <grin> If you have anything like that laying around
> > collecting dust, or know a source for it, I would appreciate knowing about
> > it.
>
> Try www.metalmart.com they have a wide variety of metals and sell by the
> inch. Reasonable rates and no cutting charge.
>
> Doug Couts >>
>
> Don't bother with metalmart. They do not have any high carbon steel alloys
> at all. The highest carbon content of their alloys was about 45 points.
>
> Keith
Try a place called Metal Supermarkets. Their ad claims that they can
get whatever you want. I figured I would try them out.
I called in the morning asking for a 3' piece of rectangular S7,
1/2"x1". Not a huge order! That afternoon, they called me back with a
price of $31.32 plus shipping. I ended up buying a 12' piece of it for
$93. This works out to $4.42/pound, which is not a bad price for
rectangular S7.
Please note that these prices include a 15% discount for first time
customers.
Metal Supermarkets
Chicago
1675 Tonne Road
Elk Grove, IL 60007
1-888-metal01
Atlanta
184 Selig Drive
Atlanta, GA 30336
1-888-metalnu
Their ad lists many shapes of aluminum, stainless, brass, copper,
carbon steel, tool steel, bearing bronze, alloy bar. They also
(appropriately) say things like "sick of paying high prices for small
quantities? tired of meeting minimum orders?".
Steven O. Smith
steve@cc.com
****************
At 01:24 PM 2/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone know the carbon content of your standard, fluted concrete
>nails? I've been using them to make engraving chisels (which work
>great, incidentally), but I don't know the percent(points) of carbon
>they contain.
>David C. Hufford
I don't know the carbon content, but they certainly do make good engraving
tools. We had a demonstration of this at the November meeting of UMBA.
While I've never tried it, what I saw worked great. And, the price is right.
Dave Brown
****************
KeithSnook@aol.com wrote:
> Ron,
> I did find at least one source for 100 point steel. Crucible Service
> Centers (www.crucibleservice.com) has AISI 52100 steel. A lot of the other
> suggestions sound a lot better than trying to buy small quantities of steel
> from any supplier, though.
>
> I also located a suppler of alloy and tool steels closer to you neck of the
> woods. Pacific Machinery & Tool Steel is in Portland, OR. (800) 547-1091. I
> did not make a note of their URL, however. :-( They have plow and spring
> steels and various A, O and S steels.
> Keith
You can get 52100 steel from roller bearing races. And the ball bearings
for that matter.
Clint
****************
Ron...
I've just done what you're hesitant to do over the years..Actually I've
been turned onto old equipment that's just out in a field or scrap heaps that
are on old homesteads. Seems most of such stuff doesn't ever find its way
to the scrap yards unless the farm has been bought by a non-farmer/rancher
who just wants to clean up. Keep your eyes peeled on back roads. One
warning is that the conveyor steel rods are almost always still intact and
thus are linked together and are very heavy to move unless you take the
time to "unlink" them or have a cutting torch to cut them into managable
sections to move. Good luck
Barry... Twisp, Wa.
****************
In a message dated 97-02-13 08:52:07 EST, you write:
<< I need a small amount of ultra high carbon steel, around 130 points. >>
W1 tool steel can have up to that amount or more, but is usually in the
.80/.90 range. If you check W1 or "water hardening" DRILL ROD, you find that
the carbon is much higher, around the 1.05 to 1.25 range. Ask for mill
certifications, they will have them.
Mike Schermerhorn
***************
<< Does anyone know what kind of steel is use in fork lift tangs
It must be something good!! I have one that is about 2"X 4"X 4'+
E-YA, GBH... :-) >>
I had a customer bring one in that he had bent. He wanted me to straighten
and retemper it. When I called the forklift manufacturer, they said that the
tang was made out of 1045.
Keith
*************
I would suspect that if the stainless and was used in the food
processing industry it is probably a "mild" stainless and is not
hardenable. There are stainless steels that harden and are a favourite
of todays knife makers. Namely ATS34 and 440C. these are usually air
hardened. I really don't think that a stainless would make good punches
and chisles.
You would be better off trying old struts from the auto industry. These
are often an "S" ( shock resistant )type steel and harden into some
dandy punches and chisels.
Stainless also doesn't fare too well in a coal forge as it soaks up the
sulfer gases produced thereby ruining the steel.
I have forged some ATS34, not into punches but rather into a hook. Just
had to try. It is "Red Hard" ( doesn't move too well even into orange
) It also retains a lot of stiffness and is difficult to shape. Be
carefull not to get it too hot or it does "red short"...
Wayne Hirkala..
*************
>Talked to the highway dept. grader driver and he said , "If the edge of the
>blade has a burr on the edge that is in contact with the ground, it is of
>high carbon plow steel. If it is rounded, it is a high tungston ,chrome
>steel." I made a knife out of the tungston stuff and it lost its fine cutting
>edge after only a few cuts, then wore the slightly rounded edge through
>anything I could throw at it. A metalurgist friend of miine told me that it
>is its nature, do to the tungston.
> Steve Rollert
My steel supplier sells grader blades in varying sizes. They call it "cut
edge". It is 1045.
Bob Schade
**************
In a message dated 97-05-15 00:27:35 EDT, you write:
<< This would be directed more to Steve Rollert. Myself a novice in knife
making, I read all sorts of articles by master knifesmiths who make thier
wares from exotic materials such as D2, A2, L6, AST34, etc, etc, & and so on.
My experience as a diemaker ( actually die maintenance ) has shown me that
most of these materials are expensive, difficult to heat-treat properly, and
once sharpened do have an extremely good edge. However, once chipped or worn,
is very hard to hone back to a sharp edge. They would be OK for a
presentation piece or show piece. But I would think that if you were going to
make a good utility/hunting knife, you would want a good tough material such
as 1065,1080,1095, 5160 and the like.
I also need to find some of these knife making classes in my area.
Presently, I don't have the time to take off of work to attend some of them.
I suppose I'll have to break down and buy a few good knife making books. And
I appreciate the hint on the hint on making the cutler hammers from a rail
spike hammer. Now my only problem will be to find one of those.
Steve Rabuck
>>
With the proper heat treat and temper the "exotic" steels as you put it will
hold up very well under normal use. If you chip an edge, you are abusing the
knife, period. You are right that it will be difficult to resharpen these
materials, but the amazing increase in cutting ability is well worth it. The
other tool steels you mention also make good knives, no question about that.
One of the main considerations when choosing the steel to make a knife out
of is what the knife will be used for, and what type of person will be using it.
If you don't already have it, "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisoulas
should be required reading material for all budding knifemakers IMHO.
Dan
***************
Many leaf springs are 5160, some are 1060-1080 hi carbon steel. All of these
are considered low allow steels and can be annealed by heating to a uniform
dull red color and packing in vermiculite or wood ashes or powdered lime and
letting it slowly cool down overnight.
Heat treat by quenching from a red to red-orange color in oil (30 wt motor oil
will work). For these steels you can verify you are at the right temperature
by checking the hot steel with a magnet, when the magnet won't stick anymore
you are hot enough. Then temper in an oven at 350-450 degrees for 20-30
minutes three times with an air cool in between each temper session. The
higher the temper temperature the softer the tool will be.
Use a file to check the hardness, after the initial quench and before tempering
the file should skate accross the surface of the steel without biting in.
After tempering it should just barely bite in. How hard you leave it after
tempering depends on how it will be used.
Joe
*************
Experts of the list...
And compared to me the rest of you are just that. Want to start out
today by thanking everyone for being such a great group of people,
I've learned more lately then I can ever hope to keep in my limited
little mind (especially whilst trying to pass College Physics).
Anyway, my question (seems I have only questions and never advice.
The guy who is getting some scrap steel from a spring place for me
brought me a phamplet that they handed out during one of their
mandatory classes. It lists the steel that they use. Some of the
steel types I have never seen before so I thought that I would ask you
guys and see what you had to say. Here is the list
SUP 6 - mainly contains silicon, which raises the elastic limit; and
manganese, which improves hardenability
SUP7
7 - contains more silicon than SUP6. Silicon raises the elastic
limit and helps the spring risist permanent set. Care must be taken
with its use because it makes the spring more susceptible to
decarbonization.
SUP 9A (5160M) - Manganese and chrome are added to increase
hardenability so that it can be used for items which are thicker than
the ones using SUP6 and SUP7.
SUP 10 - Chrome and vanadium steel improves hardenability and
toughness for springs which will undergo great stress
SUP 11A - boron has been introdued to provide better hardenability
than that of SUP9A. It can be used with thicker springs than those
made with SUP9A.
SUP 12V (SRS-60) - Chrome and vanadium have been added to SUP6,
prividing great resistance to permanent set throught refining of
crystal grains.
SUP7 OTW - Materials with components of SUP7 are preheated (tempering
and cooled (quenching). (This doesn't makes sense to me, the order
that is, and I am assuming that the terms are are not right, switched
or I don't know what I am talking about. The phamplet goes on to talk
about the structures involved in heat treating, gives temperature
versus time charts which show grain structure, etc. so I am baffled by
this.)
ND 250S - Hass a lesser amount of carbon than other spring steels.
Nickel, molybdenum and vanadium have been added to it, making it
harder than previous springs. It can be used under high stress
conditions.
The list of things that they are used for is as follows:
SUP6 - Leaf Springs
SUP7 - Coil Springs
SUP9A (5160M) - leaf, coil radius rods, torsion bars, solid
stabilizers
SUP10 - Leaf Springs
SUP11A - Leaf Springs
SUP12V (SRS-60) - Coil Springs, Torsion bars
SUP7 OTW-D - Cold formed coil springs
S45C - Induction hardened torsion bars
S48C - Sold stabilizers
ND25OS - Coil springs
They also list ASB25N which is a seam welded pipe containing boron to
improve hardenability for water quenching. This hollow stock is used
for stabilizers.
I know what 5160 is and I am assuming that 5160M is for the manganese,
am I right? If nothing else this kinds gives a really clear picture
of what kind of stock modern springs (including many foreign cards to
include Honda and Nissan as this company is making springs for lots of
cars) are made out of. Hope that this isn't repetative and if anyone
can clue me in on what this SUP stands for and what types of steels
these are I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Robert
I visited a metalworkers shop yesterday and was shown a fine looking
treadle hammer. It has excellent craftmanship, finish, and balance with a
leaf spring system. A fine tuning wheel adjust it. This hammer is 125 lb.
and cost $1000. So I called the guy, Cliff Yeary, that builds them and I
hope to have a picture soon. He is building another design that he says is
much improved! The new one is 130 lb. and cost $1200. He is trying to get
his hand drawn plans and operating manual on a computer. Cliff said that
hammer construction turnaround is about three days now. Possibly will sell
the plans, and he mentioned making some tooling such as dies, swage block,
etc., also. With his permission, I'm posting his name, address (no email
yet):
Cliff Yeary
*************
The Sheppard hammer uses a "rocker arm" type mechanism and the ram moves
vertically; the Spencer-style hammer uses a "swing arm" type mechanism
and the ram moves in an arc. In my experience, the Sheppard hammer has
less "snap" and more force of impact is transmitted back to your foot
via the direct linkage of the design. The only other disadvantage of
the Sheppard hammer is the more limited clearance between the ram and
the anvil; however, I haven't found that to be a problem in my work.
The Sheppard hammer is more compact, and the vertical path of the ram
negates the need for adjustment for different size stock or workpieces.
I've had a Sheppard (Tick Creek Forge) hammer for two years and been
very pleased with it. The only improvement I could suggest is use of a
solid anvil post rather than the tube-filled-with-concrete anvil post
which mine has.
*************
Is this the hammer that uses 4 springs in the back,
if so I have all the drawings.
Mike wolfe 313-668-0404
At 07:35 PM 5/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>in the anvil's ring vol. 24 no. 2 pg. 16there is a picture of a
>treadle style hammer. i have been told that it is called a 'big lick
>hammer .' is this correct? i am interested in building said hammer
>and would like to know if plans are available for this design.
>any help would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance
>daniel-waxing moon forge
*************
Daniel,
The "Big Lick" treadle hammer is built snd sold by Richard Sheppard, Tick
Creek Forge in Bruceton Mills, W. Va. Shop phone 304-379-7450. I don't
know if the plans are available, you"ll have to check with him.
Chris
On Sun, 11 May 1997 19:35:29 +0000 "Daniel" writes:
>in the anvil's ring vol. 24 no. 2 pg. 16there is a picture of a
>treadle style hammer. i have been told that it is called a 'big lick
>hammer .' is this correct? i am interested in building said hammer
>and would like to know if plans are available for this design.
>any help would be greatly appreciated thanks in advance
>daniel-waxing moon forge
***********
Always the heretic, I'd like to weigh in on treadle hammer anvils....
I have built a few treadle hammers. I use two currently, one in the shop
and one demonstrating. Both have hollow columns. I have never found the
lack of weight to be the slightest issue. I have found that regardless of
weight, having used just about every type around in demos that I have flown
to (no treadle hammer fits the overhead luggage compartment), that they do
need to be bolted down. I have also found a distinct advantage to the (4")
square tube (1/4" wall) column left empty....you can drift through a slit
hole. I have cut an opening in the side and put an angled piece of plate
about 10" below the bottom plate. This allows a drift to pass through and
out of the tube column into a bucket of water. In 10 years of almost
daily use there has been no deformation of the tube wall. In as many years
of demonstrating on other types I have not noticed a disadvantage in the
lack of 'anvil' weight.
I also have the original ABANA plan springs on all of the ones I have
built. They are 8 smaller-wire type springs that are very easy to extend
on the downstroke and they give a quick return. An advantage of this
approach is the rapidity of stroke, for layout and fast multiple passes as
well as the fact that less effort is needed to extend those springs in
general to make a blow. All the spring does is return the head to the
upright position so a stiff, heavy spring can make the work more tiring
and the hammer less responsive as you work to overcome the heavier
spring(s). The light action of the hammers I use can be illustrated by the
fact that I can do layout chisel cuts, incising and repousse' just flexing
my ankle. A full stomp moves the head very fast, thus imparting a lot of
energy through the tooling into the stock for splitting and fullering. The
head weight is about 85lb.
The springs lifting head of the treadle hammer should allow it to float
just enough to raise it into the starting position, any more 'lift' is
simply more to overcome on the leg operated down stroke. The head should
be at a balance where the spring overcomes the head-weight and no more.
Head weight and velocity (overcoming the springs lift) of that head gives
the hammer its heavy swat.
George Dixon
*************
James P. Ryan wrote:
>Anybody have a online picture of a treadle hammer?
>I have never seen one and just can't get a grasp of it.
I haven't seen one online, but you could call Jere Kirkpatrick,
800-367-5373. He has a flyer with a photo of one. He sells kits for $625,
and of course numerous other items like tapes and books. His company is
Valley Forge and Welding, open 8 am - 5 pm Pacific time.
David
************
Dear Ron;
Glad to hear from you. I do not sell plans for the "Big Lick". The
hammer sells for 1050.00 dollars + tax (if any), and shipping. I deliver
them if you are fairly close. I am also beginning to take orders and sell
tools I have made specifically for use with the treadle hammer. If you
would give me your address, I would be glad to send you a flier on the
hammer. Have a great summer.
Yours in Smithing,
Richard N. Sheppard
Tick Creek Forge
P.O. Box 146
Bruceton Mills, WV 26525
Ph. (304) 379-2807 office
(304) 379-7450 home
*************
Ron,
>I didn't know about the possible power upgrade to the hammer. That is
>worth knowing about.
>I still do not know the weight of the hammer, but I assume it is
>about 65 pounds like the other designs.
Checked my notes & didn't see that but I remember it being in the 60-80 lb
range.
>Just looking at the foggy image I have of it really looks like a fine >unit.
I had planned to bring a camera to the event & left it home on the counter.
>It also looks, although I could be in error, that it may be a little >more
compact than other designs.
Yes it is. Richard brought 7 out west dropped one off in Spokane & sold 6
at the event.
> I have no doubt that it would put me light years ahead of where I
>am now on capability to work heavy sections, especially with both hands
>on the work.
The hammer does good heavy blows but remarkably can do som very fine light
work as well.
>If you think of any thing else about the hammer I would love to hear >it.
The springs at the back have a hose around them to cut down on the noise.
The back vertical tube is filled full of sand, the front one the anvil
rests on is sand about half way & then concrete. The anvil comes with it's
own ...I guess hardy hole..which has a tapped screw into the side so the
tool won't slip. It comes with an optional 1" thick round plate that slips
into the hole to do work on....whcih also has an ofset hardy hole for
helper tools.
The head slides inside a another square tube, about 5-6", which also has
the sides tapped for a screw fitting in which a silicon bushing sits (3
sides) which helps the head move smoothly without any problems. The unit
itself weighs about 550 lbs & has a fairly small foot print. they were
using them on top of 3/4" ply over the dirt so they are very stable when
using them.
Hope that helps....
Bob Miller
************
Dave B. wrote:
> Is there anyone on this list who has experience with one of richard
> Sheppard's "Big "Lick" treadle hammers?
I purchased one of Richard Sheppard's Tick Creek Forge treadle hammers
from the first batch he made. I've been very pleased with it. The
major advantage is the the vertical motion of the ram, which negates any
adjustment for work piece/tooling size. It is a very compact design
and, in my opinion, well made. The disadvantage of the vertical motion
ram is the fixed and limited clearance between ram and anvil, which is
about 11 inches on my model; tooling height needs to be kept to a
minimum to allow for maximum travel of the ram. Also, the rocker-arm
type linkage between treadle and ram seems to transmit more impact shock
back to the operator's foot/leg, but this has not proven to be of
consequence in my experience. In addition, I feel the Sheppard hammer
has less "snap" to the blows than the Spencer-type/swing arm hammer;
however, with an 80+ lb ram, the hammer delivers sufficient force for
most purposes.
************
>Roger,What are the functions you use the treadle hammer most for? I have a
>power hammer and am collecting the parts for a kinyon air hammer. I have
>only begun to think on treadle hammers as I haven't even seen one
>yet..........sheltered life heh? Ralph
>Ralph Sproul
Lately I've been using it for "step over" forgings. I've just finished
ironing a house with step overs being a part of the theme, they were used
on fireplace doors, mirror and picture frames, and some trim work. I made
a top and bottom form and used the Big Lick for the forging. It worked
great. I also am amazed how often I am going to it for a quick "flatter
run" across a piece of iron to level it up. I have a flatter that lives
just next to the Big Lick. This use may be more important to me than
others as my 260 lb Peter Wright has about a 3/32 nd saddle in it.
I also use it for top working iron, you know that kind of work that is
somewhat akin to leatherworking, I have about 3 coffee cans full of
different top tools for surface work.
This is just a small sampling of what it can do, and these are all examples
of procedures I would not or could not do under a power hammer. I am
looking forward to seeing a video of Clay Spencer demonstrating on the uses
of a treadle hammer. I am sure it will enlighten me further. I ordered
the tape from:
http://www.artisticiron.com
An outlet for Blacksmith products & video tapes. I have not received tyhem yet.
Till later,
Roger Olsen
*************
Dear Ron;
Sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner. I have been very busy,
but also have had some computer problems!!!!
As for the hammer, I am not currently planning any trips out west.
I may be in the midwest (Missouri), at the next conferance there.
Otherwise, I am not sure. If you want a hammer, we might be able to arrange
something with a carrier going your direction that would not be so
expensive. I'll keep checking and maybe so can you.
As to tools. I am currently making a 12 piece set, (6 sets of 2
each), which sells for 149.95 plus shipping. I accept Master Card and Visa.
Was great hearing from you and hope all is well with you and yours.
Happy Smithing
Richard N. Sheppard
HYDRAULIC PRESSES: (See Volume #1 also)
I finally finished the hydraulic press that I started back in January. It
has 15" platens with a post guided die set for holding coining and other
types of dies. I built all of the innards first so as to make absolutely
sure that there would be plenty of daylight available. It has a 50 ton
cylinder with a 6" stroke and an electric pump system.
Taking advice from AM I used the 7018 rod and probably have over 60 linear
inches of weld on each corner of the press.
I love it. Now I just have to figure out what color to paint it and build a
steel table to hold this monster.
Thank you Lee, Frosty, Valerie and everyone else who helped me with this
project.
Kenneth Gastineau
gastin@mis.net
*************
>> Steve, I strongly suggest you communicate with Lee Marshall about hydraulic
>> press requirements for forge work. It is not worth "poor boying" it in the
>> press department. They have to be very powerful, but also very fast, and
>Thanks, I've stared a lot at Lee's web page. Good stuff, but he is
>selling finished presses--hardly fair to ask him for free advice about
>building my own!
>Batson's plans are far from poor boying it. He's designed around a 5",
>24 ton cylinder, 1-2" per second travel (2-5HP), severely overdesigned
>C frame (reinforced 14" web, 38lb/ft I beam..).
>Steven O. Smith
>Fort Collins, Colorado
>Steven.O.Smith@nsc.com
>
>
To all those interested:
The basic rule of thumb is: 1hp= 1gal-min@1500psi
This rule applies to electric motors.
other rules that follow from this one are:
1 electric motor hp= 1 1/2 hydraulic motor hp
1 gasoline engine hp= 2/3 hydraulic motor hp
1 hydraulic motor hp= 1 2/3 gasoline engine hp
1 hydraulic motor hp= 2/3 electric motor hp
1 electric motor hp= 2 1/2 gasoline engine hp
and I'll bet you thought a hp was a hp ...........hah! but from
this you should be able to figure your needs. The other thing to figure is
the cubic inches in a gallon
I think the 38lb/ft I beam is a good idea for a 24 ton ram.That
is alot of power. You could easily bend 2" schedule 40...........(cold!) so
think what you could do hot!.........next step is to think about lifting it.
Hydraulics are great! Ralph
Ralph Sproul
Bear Hill Blacksmith
>George, where can a fly press be obtained today? Are they available
>anyplace in the US?
Used machinery dealers in the north east, Rhode Island (a hot-bed of fly
presses) and Mass. for example, often have them. Look for triple-lead
screw type presses, they have more travel vertically per rotation of the
screw so they are faster in cycle for hot work. A yellow page search of
larger cities up there would probably produce leads.
One approach that served Tal Harris, Pres NC ABANA, was to look in the
Thomas Register at companies which were both in the press using industry
and were old. Many he called had old presses still around but unused since
hydraulics came along.
George
*************
>George, where can a fly press be obtained today? Are they available
>anyplace in the US?
>
> Ron
>
Jim Bomba had some a while back.
P O Drawer C, North East, MD, 21901, 410-287-7851
Clay
***********
Greetings,
I use a fly press for various tasks in architectural scale forge work. The
fly-press is best analogized as a mechanical version of a hydraulic press.
The ones I have take 1" round shank tooling in the end of the ram. This
allows chisels and drifts to be made for slit-and-drift operations.
Slitting a 3/4" thick bar is a one heat operation with the larger one.
Drifting holes for 1" bars is also a one heat event.
The next job calls for English Half-penny snub end scrolls. The press is
being tooled to isolate the material for the snub-end and start the taper
of the scroll in one operation. The snub end will still be hand forged on
a snub end tool, but the blank with taper will save at least 2 weeks of
prep-forging.
Bends, both curved into swages and square into V-blocks can be done with ease.
Straightening forged bars, using a flat faced plate on the end of the ram,
is very quick work. I hand reforge every inch of every bar before a rail
is started, so there is a lot of straightening. 5/8" X 2" or 3/4" X 1
1/4" bars are no problem. And it goes fast.
Offset bends are a breeze, the tooling is simple. One thing I like about a
fly press is that you can feel the effect as it happens since you are
actuating the thrust by hand. There is less (almost no) chance of applying
too much pressure. The cycle time is also much faster than a hydraulic
press.
All manners of set tool work can be done on the fly press.
George Dixon
Ron R. wrote:
> It looks like you have lots of advice on the anvil so I will comment on the
> bits. I have both a post drill, and a drill press that I built patterned
> after some of the presses that predate post drills. it uses a brace driven
> with a big ACME screw. I use the "spade bits" in it and I simply make them
> myself.
Ron, could you post a picture of this, please? I have a mental picture
of what's going on, but figure it's not quite right.
I second your notion of making your own bits. Some years ago I used to
teach jewelry making. (Patience please, there really is some
blacksmithing coming up here.)
Jewelers do a lot of pierced work. That is, drill a little hole, thread
the jeweler's saw blade through, saw an interior shape, remove the blade
and repeat until the piece is sawn to shape. A jeweler's saw is tiny.
Shapes are small. This means a small drill (say a #60 or so). 20 years
ago, a #60 drill cost about 80 cents, buying one at a time.
Students tend to break LOTS of these bits. For a while, I simply told
them to supply their own, figuring that they'd be more careful. Finally
I realized that most of them were simply learning fine motor control in
their hands and fingers, and were physically incapable of the control
necessary to work at that scale. I added a demonstration to my teaching
cirriculum -- making tiny drills. Here's about how it goes:
Required components:
Sewing needle
Alcohol lamp
3-in-one oil
Pliers
File
Jeweler's bench block (polished steel)
Jeweler's hammer (chasing hammer OK, I prefer rivetting hammer)
1. Light the acohol lamp. Have the bench block next to the lamp.
2. Holding the needle by the eye in the pliers, heat the tip to red
hot in the flame of the lamp.
3. Forge it flat on the bench block. (if you can't do this in one
heat, you're moving too slow between heating and hammering.)
4. Let the needle air cool.
5. File the flattened tip of needle to the diameter of the hole and
shape the tip to a spade bit shape. Angle of filing creates the
relief for the cutting edges.
6. Prepare a quenching container (I often used a soft drink bottle cap)
and put some 3-in-one oil in it.
7. Heat the point to red hot and quench in oil before it loses color.
8. Come right out of the oil and hold it in the alcohol lamp flame just
long enough to ignite the oil. Pull it back and let the oil burn
itself out. This draws the temper to just about the right point.
This little demo was really an eye opener to a lot of students. The
look on their faces when they could see two little curls of metal coming
off the point of their drill was amizing.
Morgan Hall
***********
Hello All,
The neat thing about these triangular holes is that if you use calipers or
a telescope gage to measure them with, they will measure the correct
dimension all the way around. This is one reason why in addition to a good
finish, precise holes are usually reamed or bored on a lathe. Any two
fluted drill which is used to drill a hole without a pilot hole will do
this to a certain degree. The higher the tool pressure the greater the
effect. If you are looking for cheap reamers for round holes try a D-bit
reamer. You make them yourself from drill rod. There is a book called the
Machinist's Bedside Reader written by Guy Lautard which is full of good
stuff like D-bit reamers and other types of neat tooling ideas. How about
using milk as a tapping lube for copper? It's in there!
Matt
----------
> From: Frost, Jerry
> Subject: Re: Drill Bits
> Fred Clark wrote:
> > If you grind it too steep you will
> > >find that you can drill a perfect triangular hole, but not a round one!
> >
> > Ron, I hate to be the only one to bite on this, but ...a TRIANGULAR hole??
> >
> > Fred
>
> That's right, triangular. Of course the corners are rounded but the hole
> comes out triangular none-the-less. Other factors can achieve the effect
> too, such as uneven bevels or cutting faces so If you're freehand
> sharpening your own, it pays to buy a gage and practice.
> Frosty
ANVILS AND ANVIL REPAIR: (See also Volume #1)
From: Matt Balent/HCS/CSC on 02/06/97 07:23 AM
I used 'super missile' rod from Arco after a 400 degree pre-heat.
Make sure you use some sort of heat sink on the surface or you
could lose temper.
Been using the anvil for over a year now with no problems.
- Matt
**************
I recently repaired some fairly serious damage on mine by preheating to
400 degrees and welding with a hard facing rod ( 6700 from UTP.) I
wouldn't skip the pre-heat, I think you could get some cracks without it.
Mine seems to be working well.
My .02 worth
Jack Geisler
jgeisler@juno.com
(BCS Jerry Boyd) writes:
>I have been using an anvil for several years that had been abused
>some.
>There are a few arc marks and gouges from a cutting torch that I try
>to
>work around. Can I fill these gouges up with an arc welder and file
>smooth without hurting the hard surface? Should I just mill the face
>down below the depth of the gouges?
*************
> I have an anvil that has been passed down to me through several
> generations. From the stand point of appearance it is in great shape.
> But the function ability of it is limited due to the hard surface that
> is about 1/2" thick being loose. Does anyone offer a repair service (or
> know someone that does) to repair this anvil to its original condition by
> means of the original method of attachment
> Kirk T
Kirk,
I saved the stuff below from a previous discussion. Also included is
something that just came across rec.crafts.metalworking news which
might be of interest. Ernie makes anvils from plate.
Steven O. Smith
steve@cc.com
Subject: Re: Repairing anvils
I have gone to the trouble of repairing several anvils by welding on new
plates. It does not take as much time as you might think, but several things
make life easier.
Although I've used truck springs for the plate with success, I also had one
fail miserably. Maybe it was work or weld stressed or maybe it was
overheated before quenched, but it cracked horribly and had to be rewelded.
Conversely, I've had several work out well.
The only time I would recommend this process is to restore extensive damage
on large anvils that are worth the time. The basic procedure is to gouge off
the remnants of the old plate and "V" the top of the anvil to provide a root
for the welding. Drill/cut the hardie and pritchel holes in the new plate
with drill/torch/die grinder to match existing holes. Make sure the plate is
stress relieved before welding. Tack it squarely in place and preheat to
about 300-400 F. Weld from the center out and fill the entire root until
there is a protruding bead that can be ground flush without leaving traces of
the weld (undercuts, puddles, etc.) I either use a MIG or an E6011 rod and
don't clean the welds - I just weld right over each pass (you can't do this
with rods that leave heavy slag). Although I can't prove it, I think now
would be a good time to bring the anvil to critical temp and let it normalize
in the atmosphere, but I have hardened several without taking this extra
step. However, the cracking incident has made me wary.
The forge I made to heat anvils is a piece of plate, 3'x3'x1/4", set on 3
legs (I'm lazy) with a slot cut in the plate about 1/2" wide and as long as
the anvil face. There is a long piece of square tubing welded to the bottom
of the plate as a tuyere. The fuel is coal and the air can be a manual or
electric blower. I make a collar encircling the anvil's waist with 1-1/4"
pipe arms sticking out to allow manipulation and so a piece of 1" pipe will
slip fit. Two men can handle a 300 lb anvil in this manner without too much
trouble. Personally, I use a tractor with gin pole to pick it up with the
3-point or you could also use a hoist. You must also provide some method of
supporting the anvil while it heats - I make two simple "A"frames, welded to
the plate which hold the pipe so the anvil is about 2-3" above the slot. The
fire is started first and when it is going over the full length of the slot,
the anvil is put in place. Pack lots of damp coal around and keep the blast
low to medium, making sure the fire does not burn hollow under the anvil.
The heel will heat up first because it is thinner, but you can usually heat
a 250 lb anvil to critical temp in about an hour. At this point, you can
either quench in a large water container (like a cattle trough) or you can
pour a continuous, heavy stream of water on the anvil face. I fill several
55-gallon open-top drums with water, say a fervent prayer and start pouring
FAST to drop the critical temp quickly. Be wary of the steam! After the
water is gone, I play a garden hose on it to finish the cooling. If it
hasn't cracked, it can now be finish ground. I don't temper and I can't say
whether it is necessary. My main "battle" anvil is a 250 lb Peter Wright
that I repaired this way and it has lasted under regular, heavy use for 10
years.
Caveats:
1. If you use scrap for the plate, do thorough testing before welding it on
- it's probably safer to buy W1 in the right size.
2. Stress relieve!
3. Don't overheat the face - not much heat is needed to get to critical
temp. Better to have a slightly softer face than a glass-hard surface which
chips.
4. Be careful!!! - this is a BIG, HOT, HEAVY piece of steel.
Work time for me to replate an average anvil is 12-16 hours - you might be
faster or slower depending on skill and initiative. I have also done
build-up work with rods - I use Certanium, but Stoody and Palco are good,
too. Don't use standard low-hydrogen rods for build-up.
A couple of years ago, I wrote a summary of this method with sketches in the
Anvil's Ring. If anybody wants further detail, you can E-mail me with
questions/comments.
hollis
From: LLiseW@aol.com
Subject: Re: Repairing anvils
Steve,
I sold Certanium rods for about 6 months (the source of my ever dwindling
supply) and the tech guys told me that low hydrogen rod does NOTHING for
carbon steel. Their reasoning was that any time you weld on carbon steel,
you get carbon embrittlement due to the dissolution of the carbon into the
weld pool. For example, say you were welding a piece of 1095 plate with
low-hy rod. You would probably get spots in the weld deposit that were .5%
and others that are over 1% creating an imbalanced structure. The party line
at Certanium was that the specialty rods are supposed to create a ductile and
homogenous weld zone. Their demo was to weld two pieces of a file
edge-to-edge without preheat, then clamp one end in a vise and beat the file
first one way and then the other. Usually, the top piece would bend 90
degrees to one side and then BACK 180 degrees. They swore that no common
rods would meet this test. All this said, I can't say with certainty that
your 9016 rods won't work. Try it and see - just make sure you pre and post
heat to minimize chilling.
From: stagesmith@earthlink.net (Ernie Leimkuhler)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: How to clean up anvil?
Date: 7 Feb 1997 03:49:27 GMT
Organization: Stagesmith Productions
> I just purchased an old 190-lb anvil. It is rusted and has some dings
> in it. I want to clean it up with a wire wheel and paint the sides.
> What is usually done to make the anvil look nice and can small dents
> in the horn be filled with my MIG 250 welder? Is the top face
> hardened and can/should it be face milled?
>
> Thanks
OK Dave
Since you have a 250 amp MIG life will be pretty easy.
Grinding the surface with a coarse 9" right angle grinder will help true
it up, but to build up the edges and fill holes you will need to lay down
some hardface.
If you were stick welding then you would need to go through the usual
rigamarol of preheating to 400 deg F and allowing it to slow cool.
Since you have a MIG life will be much easier. Rankin makes several
hardfacing wire products that work wonderfully.
For general buildup I use Rankin BBG ( rockwell C47 ) , and for the final
surface I use Rankin DDG ( rockwell C56 ).
The wires come in .045" and .065", but the you will only be able to run
the .045" in a 250 amp MIG, since .065" wire requires about 350 amps.
The Rankin hardfacing wires are actually a dual-shield product. This means
that they are flux-core wires that are run with a gas sheild.
Dual-shield burns very hot so no preheat is necessary. To fill holes
first you need to gouge out the holes with the edge of a grinding wheel.
The idea is to grind out the cracks and any gunk that is wedged in the
holes. If the edges are cracked then grind them too.
Any surface that is to be hardfaced must be ground first to get rid of any
contaminants. If your anvil is cast or forged steel then you can also
hardface the horn.
If it is cast iron then you have to lay down a layer of nickle rod to act
as a buttering pass. Then lay down the hardface on top of that.
Having a hardfaced horn is really nice.
I rebuilt the face on an old trenton anvil last year and I went ahead and
hardfaced the horn while I was at it.
You will be running the MIG at almost full power, so be prepared for some
heavy welding.
Personally I love the Rankin wires and would never go back to stick rod.
The odd thing about the rankin wires is that you end up with a layer of
fllux that cools on top of the bead just like stick rod, but the flux self
ejects as it cools. So some light tapping and it falls off real clean.
Make sure to clean off the all flux before laying down a second pass to
prevent flux inclusions.
Lay down beads of about 3/4" width and make sure to weave as you go to
spread it out.
You will find that the anvil will get quite warm as you progress.
If as you grind off the added metal you find small pockets you missed,
just fill them in.
Be careful about hardfacing around the hardie hole since grinding it out
can be quite difficult. A handfile will cut the BBG wire, but the DDG is
way to hard.
It's like filing glass.
If you wanted a harder surface, they also make a hardfacing wire that has
Tungsten Carbide in it ( rockwell C62 ).
I usually paint my anvils with Hammerite and clean up any markings with a
hand chisel.
Best of luck
Ernie Leimkuhler
**************
> From: Phil Rosche <rosche@dilbert.scra.org>
> Subject: Anvil Repair
> Well, to get off some other subjects floating around theforge in the
> last couple of days, I have a couple of questions about anvil repair:
> 1. If I want to just build up the edges a little, can I weld relatively
> short beads and let them cool a little, and then weld another short
> bead, without preheating?
Yep. Just weld about an inch an stop and let it cool - or cool it
with a cup of water but be careful not to get your feet wet and
become a better ground than your cable is.
> 2. A guy this last weekend mentioned a technique for building up the
> edges. He said to clamp a piece of flat brass against the side (or top,
> depending on which side of the edge you are building up) and weld
> against it. He said you could get a relatively smooth and flat weld,
> and the weld metal would not stick to the brass.
> Has anyone done this before?
Yep. Works great. I fixed the wallowed out edges of my hardy hole
this way by using a piece of brass about 3/16" thick and 3/4" wide.
I used 7018 low hydrogen rods. They work harden a little but not
enough to become brittle. It will ding a little if you hit with the
edges of the hammer but holds up well enough as long as you don't do
any forging of cold iron on it.
Donnie Fulwood, Editor
************
Phil Rosche wrote:
> Well, to get off some other subjects floating around theforge in the
> last couple of days, I have a couple of questions about anvil repair:
> 1. If I want to just build up the edges a little, can I weld relatively
> short beads and let them cool a little, and then weld another short
> bead, without preheating?
> 2. A guy this last weekend mentioned a technique for building up the
> edges. He said to clamp a piece of flat brass against the side (or top,
> depending on which side of the edge you are building up) and weld
> against it. He said you could get a relatively smooth and flat weld,
> and the weld metal would not stick to the brass.
> Has anyone done this before?
> How thick does the brass have to be?
> Doesn't the brass melt?
> 3. What welding rods are recommended?
> Thanks,
> Phil Rosche
Phil: Copper will work better and put a spacer between the plate and
the anvil, say 16ga., so that you have a bit to grind away. You won't
need any of that if you are just welding a few inches at a time. Just be
sure that you pein your weld diligently after each 1/2 rod and then go
to the other side of the anvil for the next 1/2 rod. This might be a bit
of overkill but the start of a long weld will be quite cool by the time
you burn a whole 5/32 rod. I would use Stoody 2110 since your only
building up corners and have no room for a harder cap. Just be sure to
pein it plenty before you grind it because this is essentially a buildup
rod but it will work harden to 40 - 45 Rc in two passes. Grind the edges
of your anvil first. This is a cast steel we're talking about.
Ross
*************
> I would use Stoody 2110 since your only building up corners and have
> no room for a harder cap. Just be sure to pein it plenty before you
> grind it because this is essentially a buildup rod but it will work
> harden to 40 - 45 Rc in two passes. Grind the edges of your anvil
> first. This is a cast steel we're talking about.
> Ross
I show Stoody 1105 as a buildup rod and 2110 as a hardfacing rod. I
think that the 2110 reaches something like 53 Rc (with the 40-45 Rc
being right for 1105).
Stoody 2110 sometimes has a hard time sticking to anvils. If you are
welding to a tool steel top plate, it will probably be ok. If you are
welding to the anvil body material, watch for cracking. What I've seen
happen is that a crack can form all along the edge of the bead. If
this happens, then you need a buildup rod, such as 1105 (or maybe
preheat, or more wirebrushing..).
Preheat isn't too hard to do with a weedburner. Note that the
temperature of 400F is chosen so that you do not lose any of the
hardness in the rest of the anvil. This means that you don't need to
re-harden and temper your anvil. The Stoody rod work hardens. Don't
exceed 450F if you want to not 'lose your temper'. A welding
instructor told me that you probably only need 200-300F preheat, but I
haven't tried this. Insulate the anvil when done so it cools slowly.--
Steven O. Smith
*************
This is sure a complex subject.
I've talked with two different guys on the Stoody hotline
(800)832-4123 about rebuilding anvils. I'm convinced (was convinced
before, actually) that there are no simple answers here. I'm going to
try to summarize what I've got so far.
The procedure that works depends a lot on exactly what the composition
of your anvil steel is (as has been said here previously). The only
thing I've tried is 1105 first, 2110 on top. This works on Peter
Wright anvils. It will not work on cast iron (i.e. Vulcan), may be
likely to work on wrought body anvils like PW. This is all I can speak
of from my own experience. Before you blow a bunch of money on rod,
get a sample and see how it welds on the anvil you intend to
rebuild. A couple of years ago, I paid $3.50/lb for 1105 and $5.20/lb
for 2110. They come in 10lb. packages, so it adds up fast.
2110 rod is good at bonding dissimilar steels together. It is about 20
Rc as deposited, and can work harden into the low 50's after
substantial deformation. Abrasion resistance is good, impact
resistance is excellent. The impact resistance is why it is a good top
layer. 2110 is high in Chromium (13%), and is essentially a kind of
stainless (I think). Uses include surfacing (buildup of) roll
crushers, shear blades, shovel teeth and hammers. No limit on layers.
1105 rod is an air hardening tool steel. It is 43 Rc as welded, no
hardening needed. Bonds well to carbon and low alloy steels, not
recommended for manganese steel. Moderate abrasion and impact
resistance. LIMIT 4 layers. Uses include shovel rollers and idlers,
sprockets.
1102 is similar to 1105 but harder--54-58 Rc as welded, H12 air
hardening tool steel. Relatively new rod. Abrasion resistance
excellent, impact strength good, compressive strength high. LIMIT 1/2"
(4 layers nominal). Uses include forging dies, crane wheels, hot and
cold shear blades. Good for hot wear up to 1100F.
All three rods are AC or +/-DC. I've only used DC reverse. Note that
Stoody says that none of the rods should show any cracking if put down
on an appropriate base with sufficient preheat, contrary to a previous
letter on theforge.
The first Stoody guy I talked to said that if the 2110 cracks when put
down first (which fits my experience), then the base material is
acting as if it were a cast iron (which it is not-Peter Wright). He
said that if the 1105 welds without cracking, just use 1105, don't
bother with the 2110. The second Stoody guy said the 2110 was
definitely the stuff for a top layer due to its impact resistance.
They also said that what works works. If you have experience with an
approach that works, stay with it. A lot depends on exactly what type of
steel you are welding to, and this will vary a whole bunch from one
anvil manufacturer to another.
I end up finding his recommendation of 1105 only compelling (if it
bonds well to the base material). 1105 is cheaper for one (3.50
vs. 5.20 per pound). As for needing a harder top layer, I haven't
gotten much if any deformation out of my top layer 2110, which means
that it hasn't done much hardening-- 20Rc according to Stoody. The
limitation here is that they only recommend a maximum of 4 layers of
1105.
The second Stoody guy suggested another combination that should work
is using BuildupLH first, topped off with 2110. (Note here that I am
getting different recommendations from two different guys, both at
Stoody). This will not work on cast iron.
The conclusion I come away with is that if you don't know what will
definitely work, plan on experimenting a bit with rod samples. There
are also other specialty rod companies besides Stoody (such as
Certainium). Keep reporting your results to this forum!
Steven O. Smith
***************
Here is an anvil thread from early last year.....
Subject: Re: old anvil
Vince and all other anvil lovers,
Double check your anvil, it should read Peter Wright, England,
Warranted, although the name of the company was Peter Wright and
Sons, during the later part of othe 19th and early part of the 20th
century.
If it is Henry, you probably have a unique Anvil, for there is no mention
of a Henry Wright anvil in the literature I have. Take your anvil out in the
sun, tip it, for good lighting, and have another look. If still not sure, do a rubbing.
The "130" is the weight, 1=112, 3/4 of 112 = 84 and 0=0, The anvil weights
196 lbs.
Brief history and dating of Anvils in use before the Hay-Budden in 1886.
Before 1650, made by local smiths
1650?-1850?, made by Mouse Hole Forge in Dudley, England
1850?-1886, made by Peter Wright in England, first at Dudley
1850?-1886, made by the Wilkeyson Forge in Dudley, England, following the
Peter Wright method of the six piece then a three piece anvil (more on
these next time)
1842 OR 1843, the first Anvil was made in America by Mr. Mark Fisher, and
later produced under the name of Fisher & Norris. "Eagle" brand.
In 1864 James Chase got out his first batch of two-piece American Wrought
anvils, 12 in all.
In Sweden, the Soderfore Bruke Aktiebology, founded in 1250, sold a one
solid piece anvil in 1885, sold in American as the Paragon.
Next time more about the building up process of the Mouse Hole and Peter
Wright Anvils.
Vince Herod wrote :
> Henry Wright
> England
> Warranted
> 130
> Vince
>
Subject: Re: old anvil again
On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, chris Hubbard wrote:
> While we are on the topic of old anvils, I have one that has Arm and Hammar
> Wrought Iron on the side plus the number 85 which I assume is the weight.
>I wondered if anyone has heard of this type of anvil since I haven't seen it
> listed in the discussions so far.
Secont part of Anvils and more Anvils, but first a answer to the above.
This anvil was either forged or given a major repair job by the
Columbian Anvil & Forging Co. All their adds from 1906 to early 1920's state:
"We can repair any wrought iron anivl, and made it better and new."
In all of their adds, they do not once mention that they also sell anvils.
I assume that after a major repair job of a wrought iron anvil, they would then stamp
it with the raised Arm and Hammer, I believe enclosed in a circle. Will
check this evening and let you know on Monday.
Part 2. Quoted and paraphrased from The American Blacksmith, Oct. 1914.
Peter Wright started forging anvils somewhere around 1850, after working
for the Mouse Hole Forge in Dudley. The anvils were made up of 3 parts
(before this anvils consisted of 6 parts: two legs, body, horn,
tail and steel plate (usually consisted of three or more pieces)).
"The bottom part is formed by piling up scrap iron and welding it into a
solid mass. While still hot it is placed in a die and blocked to shape.
The whole of the upper part, including the horn and tail, are forged
in one piece from scrap iron, the greater part of the shaping being done
at the same heat at which the scrap is welded. Next the steel face is
welded on, the hardie and pritched hole punched, the tail
or heal squared and the horn finished to shape. The two pieces, base
and upper parts are welded at the waist. This is done by jumping. The two
pieces are heated in an open fire; when the welding temperature has been
reached the two ar placed in alignment under a steam hammer & a few blows
join them together. The steam hammer is then used as a vise to hold the
anvil while the edges of the weld are hammered in. The anvil is then
thrown on the floor where it can easily be turned in any position or
direction and finished, as far as forging goes, with hand tools. For
a long time the steel faces, were welded on in sections of about 6
inches in length. Sometime after the turn of the century, the whole face
was welded on in one piece, borrowed from an An American blacksmith.
Want to forge an anvil???????!!!!!!!
>From The American Blacksmith, September 1914. History of Development of
the Anvil--1, by James Cran. Evidently he had just visited the Mouse Hole
Forge in Sheffield, England and the Peter Wright Forge in Dudley, England.
For he states, "The present owners [of of the Mouse Hole Forge], Brooks &
Cooper, have run the works for upwards of 38 years, and are still making
anvils that are hard to beat ... and they operate their forge to this day
with no other power than that developoed by an old-fashioned water wheel.
The same old-fashioned helve hammer, or 'metal helve' as
it is locally termed, is still doing duty and is operated by the already
mentioned water wheel. The building itself, with its old-fashonied solid
stone walls and low arched windows and doorways, shows but slight signs
of the ravages usually worked by time, and are apparently good, barring
misfortune, for centuries to come.
Originally the Mouse Hole anvil was made up of 6 pieces by the building up
process. The corners of the base or feet, the horn and tail or heel was
welded on to a centerpiece. After this the steel face was welded on in
sections, trimmed and finished to the desired shape by hand tools. The
face was then ground and hardened and, after hardening, the face was
again ground and finished."
I have a Wilkinspon anvil, made in Dudley. It is a six piece anvil, the
horn and tail have been broken off, but it is clear that they have been
forged on to the centerpiece as have the corners of the
feet.
More next time.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Page Thomas <pthomas@post.cis.smu.edu>
Advertisements in the American Blacksmith from 1906-1915
Columbus Anvil and Forging Co., West Frankfort St., Columbus, Ohio.
"We are experts at repairing old wrought anvils. We also manufacture
the celebrated Arm and Hammer brand anvil."
Eagle Anvil Works, Trenton, New Jersey. In 1911 changed name to Fisher
& Norris, Trenton, New Jersey. Known as the Trinton Anvil.
Oldest manufacturing of anvils in the U.S., 1843.
"The face consists of a single piece of the very best cast steel,
perfectly welded and of the hardest temper. The horn is made of tough
untempered steel and will neither break nor bend. All 'Eagle' anvils
made with the latest Fisher Patent double thick steel on both edges of
the face. From 10 to 1300 lbs."
How to identify. A spread eagle [1922 the eagle is enclosed in a
horseshoe]
The weight of the anvil is on the right foot. " FISHER" stamped on front
of foot below the tail. Above this on the top of the foot is "PATENT".
Forged eyelets are on each foot under the tail and horn.
Peter Wright & Sons, England. Wiebusch & Hilcer, Ltd., New York Office,
9-15 Murray Street, New York City.
Peter Wright
Patent
Solid Wrought
Columbian Hardware Company, Cleveland, Ohio.
"Columbian All-Steel Anvil"
'Columbian' on body.
Hay-Budden Mfg. Co., Brooklyn N.Y.
"Hay-Budden solid Wrought Anvils. Gold Medal Award in 1898 at Omaha and
1901 at Pan American. Made of the best American Wrought Iron and faced
with best crucible cast steel.
Hay-Budden
Manufacturing Co.
Brooklyn, N.Y.
U.S.A.
Soederfors Bruks Aktiebolog, Falan, Sweden. General Sales Agent, Hrace
T. Potts & Company, Philadelphia, U.S.A.
"Paragon Solid Anvil. Made of one piece of steel. There are no welds to
come apart."
Solid Steel
Paragon [enclosed in rectangle]
Sweden
All of the above except Peter Wright are advertised in ther Jan. 1915 issue.
In March 1922, only Trenton Solid Wrought and Hay-Budden run advertisements.
October 1922, only Trenton Solid Wrought with Eagle inside a horseshoe.
Other Anvils manufactured in the early 20's.
Vulcan, made entirely of tough untempered steel. The body is charcoal
iron, and the face is covered with one solid peice of tool steel welded
to the body.
Montgomery Wards in their 1894-95 cagtalog, list "An American Wrought
'Horse Shoe' anvil and the Peter Wright Blacksmith Wrought Anvil.
In 1908 Sears lists the Acme anvil forged of two pieces of wrought iron
welded at the waist; face is made of one piece of tool steel, electriclly
welded to the body. "Acme Guaranted" on the body.
In a 1916? Reichman-Crosly Co. advertisest the Peter Wright Wrought, the
Vulcan with Arm and Hammer inside a circle in raised letters, the Columbian
All-steel, and the Hay-Budden.
All for now.
Page
**********
Phil Rosche wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > I'm somewhat interested in upgrading my anvil. Can you folks give me some
> > advice on kinds of anvils, and reasonable pricing? I'm figuring on looking
> > at farm auctions, estate sales, and maybe at talegate sales. Thanks for
> > your comments and suggestions. JS
> JS:
>
> I like the following kinds of anvils in order of preference (this is
> only based on what I have used):
>
> Hay Budden
> Peter Wright
> Peddinghaus
> Fisher Norris
> Columbian
> Kohlswa
> Arm and Hammer
>
> I think a really decent price is $1-2 a pound. If it's in really (as in
> pristine) condition, I don't mind paying $3-3.50.
>
> Phil Rosche
Add to that list Vulcan anvils, which are awful, and Jet, which are
worse than awful.
Larry Noller
************
At 11:34 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I have a line on a 275# Peddinghaus double horn anvil. It is supposed
>to be in excellent condition, but I haven't seen it yet. I havn't used
>one of these before... is it anything special? Having outgrown my 130#
>haybudden, I need a new anvil, but I don't know if I can justify the
>expense... (we haven't gotten down to the bottom line yet, but I know
>what they cost at Centaur) Is this the anvil of my dreams, or should I
>keep looking?
>
>
The interesting part about the Peddinghaus anvil, at least to me, is that
the second horn is flat topped. Also, if I remember correctly, the sides
at this end are also flat, not curved like a typical horn. Having this
tapering flat surface can really come in handy at times for those hard to
get at pieces that need to be worked on.
I've never used a Peddinghaus, but the design is very similar to the
Refflinghaus, which I have used and liked very much.
Dave Brown
HOODS AND CHIMNEYS: (See Also Volume #1)
Mark wrote:
> I will be moving my forge inside this fall . The building it is going
> into has a steel insulated(with fiberglass batt) roof . My question is
> must I use an insulated steel chimney or could I use just a steel pipe.
> The hood is 3'x4' and the exit flue is 10" diameter . Which would draw
> better ? Any suggestions would be appreciated .Mark from Wisconsin
On the "suggestions would be appreciated" side --
At last spring's NWBA conference in Eugene, OR, I was very impressed
with our host's chimney and hood arrangement. It w